Host: Murray Norton (MN)

Guests: Sarah Schenker (SS) & Roger Cook (RC)

MN: Hello and welcome to the show, thank you very much indeed for joining us. Now today we're going to be talking, as you've just seen, about coffee, which is just as well because on the way here I was thinking about the passions in my life: golf - maybe; football - hardly; food - evidently; but coffee - most definitely. And why is that? Well I love the taste, I have a cup of coffee every morning, and - it kinda gets me going. I have a cup of coffee at the end of the night as well - is that the right thing or the wrong thing? I dunno, but we'll find out a little bit later on. In the meantime though, some facts and figures about coffee. I started looking into it when I realised I liked coffee that much, and do you realise today, at this very moment, there are some 2 billion people enjoying a cup of coffee each and every day? 17 million of those, right here, in the UK. And if that weren't enough - 20 million people, right around the globe earn their money from the coffee industry in one form or another. 50 countries producing the coffee, 40 of those - third world developing countries. And to them it's really important - some of those countries, 70 % of their income comes from exporting coffee. So you see the importance of coffee is not just a nice drink for you, but it's a livelihood and future for some countries as well. There are many different types of coffee and coffee's got a fantastic history as well. It goes back so far.

 

MN: My favourite story - because there are many people who claim that they discovered coffee - is about Caldy, the goat herder.....Caldy was a goat-herder and the goats were out there apparently, in the third century. Somewhere where what is now Ethiopia anyway, and the goats are munching their way quite happily on the berries, and started leaping around - in fact the goats were actually my kids. And so what did he do? He went and told some Abbot. The Abbot decided he'd take a bunch of these berries, tried them, they didn't taste very nice, boiled them in some water and drank the water that was boiled up with the coffee beans, and stayed awake all night, all the way through the prayers. Lovely story, whether it's true or not I don't know. I know the Dutch though, were the first to start importing coffee into Europe once it had spread round Africa and parts of Arabia as well. And then from there, the first coffee bar opened in England in Oxford in 1650. On from all of that, coffee bars opened in London, and before you know where you are, in Change Lane, I think it was called in those days, brokers used to meet outside the stock exchange. All the other important bigwigs used to meet down at what is now Lloyds of London - that was a coffee house as well. Coffee houses have been round an awfully long time and of course they're around a great deal today. The Americans - the coffee bar culture I guess you could say came from them. Well they started drinking coffee as an expression of freedom - that's what they called it, and what they would do is drink their coffee because they were turning their nose up at the tea, after they'd tipped into the harbour at a Boston tea party back in 1773. So, a colourful history it has certainly had; bad press it has sometimes had though. A lot of myths surround about coffee. The British Coffee Association have done a recent study and found there's some real intrigue and real misnomers when it comes to coffee, so we can sort some of those out today. I'm delighted to say we've got a couple of guests for you, and our 2 guests are alongside me at the moment - I'm delighted to say, Dr Sarah Schenker has joined us - thank you very much indeed for joining us. We can talk about some of those myths, because it's had some bad press, hasn't it.

SS: It has had some bad press yes, undeservedly so.

MN: Excellent, we'll put that right very shortly, and we've also got Roger Cook. Roger, thank you for coming in.

RC: It's a pleasure.

MN: From the Coffee Science Information Centre.

RC: That's right yes.

MN: What do you do there?

RC: We provide factual information taken from published studies on all aspects of coffee, caffeine and health.

MN: I'm assuming you get lots of calls from people all the time.

RC: We get all sorts of very strange calls, all sorts of normal calls.

MN: Sure.

 

RC: But we're able to reassure people from the published science that coffee drinking is absolutely safe and is increasingly being shown to possibly have some health benefits.

MN: Alright, well let's just talk about coffee and its popularity - why is coffee so popular? I know it's a very general question, but it's become the most popular drink in the world.

RC: It is absolutely. I think one of the things is that we increasingly travel abroad far more than we ever used to. And like all sorts of things when we're away we experience things that are really pleasurable and we enjoy them and we get back to grey old England and we want to try and replicate some of those feelings. And of course one of the things that we're far more aware of is that there's a huge range of coffee to choose from and there's something for everybody, and we enjoy it!

MN: Yes, we do indeed. Listen, let's talk about these myths from this study because the study came up with all sorts of extraordinary things, such as coffee is addictive. 60% of people according to this British Coffee Association survey said coffee was addictive. Is it addictive?

SS: There's a very definite difference between something that's addictive and something that you have a craving for, and you can crave a drink because it's part of your habit, part of your daily routine, part of what you do, part of something that you look forward to, but that doesn't mean it's got a chemical addiction in a way that something like nicotine or drugs would have. But people, you know, mix up the terms so sometimes they use the term incorrectly when they talk about the addictions of coffee. It's not really an addictive substance.

MN: They've enjoyed it, they want another one.

SS: That's right., yes. Like chocolate. People aren't really addicted to chocolate but, you know, people love it, they enjoy it so much. Like with coffee, red wine, that's how it works.

MN: Interesting - coffee, chocolate, both from beans as well. There must be some relationship between the two there. That's a discussion for maybe another day. We've got plenty of questions coming in, thank you very much indeed for your questions, and we had one from John earlier on and he wants to know - what's the best kind of coffee to drink? Now I'm not sure whether he means from a health benefit or from a taste benefit but I suspect that's quite subjective isn't it?

RC: It's down to individual taste, we all have things that we like and things we don't like, so...there's a huge range available on the market so you couldn't say one was better than another, it's all a good product and it's down to personal likes and dislikes.

MN: Do you represent both instant coffee as well as....

RC: As an organisation we speak about research being published on coffee and health, and we therefore tend to speak generically, we don't go into the difference between roast and ground and soluble because at the end of the day they're both 100% natural and pure products.

MN: From a dietician's perspective, without dividing the line between instant and true bean coffee if you like, is there a type of coffee that's going to be healthier for you in terms of...is espresso more healthy for you than full fat coffee or does it not make much difference.

SS: No there wouldn't be very many differences. I mean, there are...the coffee bean itself is a source of antioxidants and some minerals as well. So they would remain however the coffee was processed, and depending what strength it is you might get some with a little bit more concentrated source than others. The main difference would be what you add to the coffee. If you're adding something like full fat milk or cream or sugary syrups - that's going to be quite different than if you have something like a black coffee or an iced coffee, something like that.

MN: So the triple caramel syrup shot plus chocolate and cream to your coffee is maybe going to make a bit of difference to your diet.

SS: That's right, and it's not all bad news. Obviously coffee's a great vehicle for milk and milk is a great source of calcium, so in that respect if you have something like a skinny latte then that can actually be considered quite a healthy drink, you know, because of all the calcium that's coming from the milk and if that's the way you enjoy it - fine. But if you do want your sugary syrups and you want your cream then think about having it as a treat, not as a, you know, 3 or 4 times a day.

MN: It's the whole 'everything in moderation' thing isn't it?

SS: Absolutely.

MN: Alright, another question in from Sarah. She's very confused about coffee and exactly how much coffee she should be drinking every day. 4 or 5 cups? She's confused as to whether that is too much or not?

RC: It's an interesting question Sarah. Basically there's no limit on what's too much. In the UK we say that moderation is 4-5 cups of coffee a day, but most people find a level that they're comfortable with, it's called self-regulation, and it's a bit like everything in our diet, we tend not to eat or drink too much of something, we eat an amount that we enjoy, but 4-5 cups for most people is a perfectly sensible and safe consumption.

MN: Now I was saying earlier on about having a coffee at night - I love having a coffee at the end of a meal, and I'm told that it's supposed to aid digestion if you have an espresso at the end of a meal. I quite enjoy having an espresso at the end of a meal, I can't leave a dinner table without having one so, am I doing the right thing or is that a pretty bad thing, this whole thing about keeping you awake at night.

SS: If it doesn't disturb your sleep then that's absolutely fine, I mean there are some people that would be more sensitive to the caffeine would find that they would maybe disturb their night's sleep and they would either prefer to have a decaffeinated form of coffee, or not have a caffeinated drink at all, which is fine as well. You enjoy it, it's not particularly going to aid digestion it's just something you enjoy and there's nothing wrong with that, you can carry on enjoying it. There's not, you know, maybe the fluid aspect of it helps a bit with the digestion but nothing special in it.

MN: I was told it raised my blood pressure slightly which meant that it was aiding the digestion. That's obviously another myth about coffee.

SS: Probably yes.

RC: It is another myth. Caffeine has a very small impact on people's blood pressure but to put it in perspective, it doesn't raise it any more than lots of other things we do every day: engaging in active conversation, running up the stairs, running for a bus, and in those people who do experience an increase it soon turns back to normal. So from a health point of view it's absolute nonsense to say it's dangerous.

MN: Good. Right alright we've got that one sorted out.

RC: Absolutely.

MN: Good, that's that done. What types of coffee, as opposed to anything else, what types of coffee are better than others? It's a difficult question to answer I guess.

RC: I think it's fairly subjective. We certainly don't say that one coffee's better than another. They're different, there are different coffees on the market and again it's very much down to consumer choice.

MN: Can we just explain about the different, I mean there are different types of beans for starters.

RC: There are arabica beans and robusta beans, which are the main two that are used for making the quality products that are available to consumers today.

MN: As I'm led to believe the arabica beans are the ones that are grown above 600m - 2000m and the others are the ones that are below that.

RC: That's right yes.

MN: So it's just where they're grown basically

RC: Yes.

 

MN: OK, different types of beans and it depends how you grind them and how much water you put with them, which I suppose makes the mystery of different coffees in different countries.

RC: Yes

MN: Esther has a question for us, just coming on the screen, thank you very much Esther. She wants to know "I recently read an article which suggested coffee is a big source of antioxidants in the American diet" - it's back to what you were just saying there Sarah. "Does this mean they count in our '5 a day'?"

SS: No it doesn't.

MN: Ah, shame, cut out the vegetables!

SS: 5 a day's fruit and vegetables, however, just like fruit and vegetables and other plant-based foods, coffee is a source of antioxidants. The reason that they're there in these plant-based foods is that they are a sort of form of protection for the plant itself so that the plant and fruit and vegetables and wholegrain cereal products, all these things, contains these antioxidants because they help protect the plant when it's growing. But now we realise that by having these antioxidants that there could be potential health benefits for human beings who are eating them. So, for instance, they can help prevent the oxidation of bad cholesterol in your blood, they can maybe ward of some degenerative diseases like heart disease and cancer. They're not pure, but there could be potential health benefits from having a big array of antioxidants in your diet - from fruit and vegetables, wholegrain products and also things like coffee, cocoa beans.

MN: So, if not part of the 5 a day but still can help with your diet.

SS: Yes, it all comes down to it being a plant-based food; it's these plant-based foods that have the benefits.

MN: Right, thank you very much indeed for that. Now, Esther, thank you very much indeed for your question. Just going back to those beans, right at the beginning when we saw the pictures of the beans - little green berries then we end up with dark brown coffee beans, which we know have been roasted. The chain of events that led to them, I'm led to believe there's what? 4,000 berries or something in a kilo of coffee? It's an extraordinary amount isn't it?

RC: I don't have the exact number but yes it's a huge amount. And the actual coffee bean is the little brown things that we see in supermarkets and shops are actually inside that green berry. The green berry then ripens and goes red and that's when the cherries as they're called are harvested and when the beans come out of the cherry they're actually a sort of whitey creamy colour, they go brown or dark when they're roasted.

MN: And depending on the roast depends on the flavour, that's where we get our different varieties. So, plenty of questions coming in, thank you very much indeed for yours. "I've just found out I'm 5months pregnant" says Jane, congratulations Jane! "And is it OK to drink coffee?".

SS: Congratulations Jane. Yes it's fine. There is a limit on how much caffeine you can have when you're pregnant, and it's recommended you shouldn't have more than 300mg per day of caffeine, so you have to remember where other sources of caffeine are in your diet. So colas, tea obviously, the different strengths of coffee that you might be drinking. If you're just having your, you know, normal cup of coffee in the morning from instant or even filter, you'll be absolutely fine. But just make sure that, you know, if you're taking things like maybe diet colas or whatever else you're having, and even chocolate's got a caffeine-like substance in it. So, just, everything in moderation. There's plenty of good advice for pregnant women on the eatwell.gov website.

MN: Sorry, that website again?

SS: Eatwell.gov, that's the FSA website

MN: OK, have a look at the website and see what comes up from there and good luck with the pregnancy. In terms of 300mg, I'm trying to get in my mind how much that is? Is that in dried coffee or is that in fluid or...?

SS: Well obviously you'd sort of add the fluid to it and then it'd just still be in the cup. But I suppose in your normal mug of instant you're talking about 100mg.

MN: 100mg of caffeine

SS: Yeah

MN: So 3 cups of instant would be...

SS: 3 cups of instant would be, yeah, spread throughout the day would be fine.

MN. "If I don't have my morning coffee I feel drowsy, why is that?"

RC: Basically, quite often people find when they get up, surprisingly enough they feel drowsy. A lot of people drink coffee for the mild central nervous system effects of the caffeine. It gives us a boost. And from a scientific point of view, it's been shown quite clearly to be beneficial, particularly at things like, you know, if you've got to drive on a long journey. The Department of Transport here in the UK advise people to pull over and have a couple of cups of coffee and a short nap. Caffeine just lifts you up a bit.

SS: And it's not just the caffeine. It's very natural for most people to wake up very slightly dehydrated because you've gone all night without having any fluid intake at all. And just the taking of fluid first thing in the morning is, you know, can help perk you up a bit, make you more alert, so the combination of the caffeine and the fluid together are the two factors working together to help, you know, wake you up and get you going.

MN: It's interesting, I was looking at these figures that came out from the British Coffee Association from their study, and two things from what you've just said there that came from there. One is the 16-25year olds that were surveyed. They drink most coffee because it's a pick-you-up, as opposed to the taste whereas 55s and above drink coffee for the taste not the pick-you-up, and so obviously you get accustomed to a taste, I guess changes through your life doesn't it?

SS: Yeah you do develop a tolerance in terms of caffeine but I think what it is maybe with the older people, they're actually, it's something they're used to, it's something that's a part of their routine.

MN: Sure.

SS: So they're looking forward to the taste as well as sort of, you know, the way it will make you feel, and maybe for the younger crowd it's how you perceive it. I suppose if you actually look at the physical effects or physiological effects of caffeine they're not nearly as strong as sometimes people perceive them to be but if you want something to work for you and get you out of the door and in front of your desk on time, then, and you perceive that it's coffee that helps, then that's great!

MN: Does it count in my water intake? I mean I'm quite happily having a bit of water here, and I won't count how many cups of coffee I have in terms of fluid intake. Where does that stand?

SS: Yeah that's another myth that caffeine's very dehydrating and dehydrates you and acts as a potent diuretic - it doesn't. If I was to give you a very very strong dose of caffeine maybe in the form of a tablet or something then I might see a mild diuretic effect, that's where you would sort of pee out more fluid than maybe your body was holding.

MN: Thank you for offering but I don't want one.

SS: But to say that that would happen with a cup of coffee is pretty nonsensical.

MN: Alright, so it does count as a water intake.

SS: It does, it counts towards your fluid intake.

MN: Good well that's good news. We're halfway through by the way so keep the questions coming in. Doesn't time fly when you don't know what you're doing? "I recently tried to give up coffee but I keep getting headaches" says Celia. Is that common?

RC: It's not common, a very small percentage of the population can experience symptoms of headache or lethargy if they suddenly stop drinking caffeine. If they cut down over a period of 2 or 3 days they're unlikely to experience those symptoms.

MN: It's all, I don't really like to use the word cold turkey but it's too sudden a drop from drinking.

RC: It's like anything, if your body is used to having something every day then you suddenly stop having it your body's going to say "Oi, I'm missing it".

SS: The other thing to remember of course is that if you haven't replaced that fluid, that usual fluid that you get, with another drink, whether it's water or whether it's fruit juice or something, then you could also be experiencing mild dehydration and that can cause headaches.

MN: So it's a fact that you're actually skipping out on having the drink at all.

SS: It could be yes, because you know it's, there's a hole there somewhere and it's not being filled by another drink, people don't very consciously go and think to themselves "I'm not having my coffee so I must make sure I have a replacement drink.

MN: Replace it with something else if you're going to replace some.

SS: Yeah.

MN: Alright, Rebecca question for you, thank you Rebecca. "Ibuprofen - it's a headache tablet. Does it increase the strength of that if you take that with coffee?".

RC: Basically there's quite a lot of research that shows that if you take your ibuprofen with a cup of coffee it will have the same effect as taking 2 ibuprofens with water, so yes is does increase strength.

MN: Extraordinary.

RC: And it may act more quickly.

MN: Does that make it a good thing to take it with or a bad thing to take with? I suppose you've got to look at the dosage and work out what you need./p>

SS: Yes, I mean, some people might only need one neurofen, ibuprofen for their headache, some people might think they need a whole box which they're not allowed to take. It all depends doesn't it!?

RC: I think the important thing is that the viewer's absolutely right, she's got some good information there, which is true.

MN: It is true, so it does alter the dosage...

RC: It improves the efficacy.

MN: There we go. Alright, Rebecca - thank you very much indeed for your question. In terms of coffee and the different styles of coffee. They're inventing new ones all of the time. You've only got to look at any of the producers of coffee where there's a coffee bar or whatever, and there is a fashion to it all isn't there? You know, we seem to be going through different fads of different styles of coffee. Does this go back to what you were saying before in terms of, you know, people going on holiday and coming back and bringing an idea back with them?

RC: Yeah absolutely, and people are far more aware of what choices there are out there for them. But the key factor is that people are drinking coffee because they enjoy it.

MN: There are only 3 ingredients really if you discount the syrups - water, milk, coffee. How many different ways can we put 3 different things into a cup?

RC: Yeah whatever.

 

MN: Alright, caffeine is a question that comes up quite a lot. Well I think we mentioned decaffeinated a bit earlier on. Here's a question. Kev wants to know - is it true that the decaf process uses worse than caffeine.

RC: This is a real common misconception.

MN: So, decaf coffee, caffeinated coffee.

RC: Decaf, caffeinated are both absolutely 100% safe. There are 3 methods of decaffeinating coffee used commonly in Europe, and all of them safely and selectively remove the majority of the caffeine. They leave about 3%, and the end product is pure, it's safe, and the old story about the stuff they use is worse than caffeine, it's an old wives tale - something my mother would tell me.

MN: It's a bit like 'Oh, they use the sweepings off the floor for teabags'. Well let's not comment on teabags, let's leave it.

RC: I'm sure they don't!

MN: It's that sort of myth that perpetuates and goes around. But in terms of, I'm really intrigued, how do they take the caffeine out of coffee?

RC: There are 3 methods - they use a water method, they use carbon dioxide and they use a solvent. The solvent is actually made from fruit products, and they wash the coffee through so the caffeine is removed and then they take the liquor which they've washed out which has the flavour and put that back into the product. And then the caffeine that they remove they make into caffeine tablets, that you claim you don't have!

SS: Haha.

RC: It's used for all sorts of things actually. It's used in a lot of over-the-counter cold remedies, that sort of thing.

MN: Right, so it's a by-product that's used.

RC: Yeah.

MN: In terms of decaffeinated or caffeinated, does it make much difference to you? Because you do get people asking for decaffeinated coffee because they feel that it's better for them.

SS: People should use caffeine and decaffeinated to suit themselves. If they know that they're, you know, a bit groggy in the morning and it's going to perk them up and you know, make them move that little bit faster then great. If they know it's going to keep them awake at night then have decaffeinated in the evening but you know, on long car journeys, have the caffeinated. When you're just trying to relax, maybe with a book or you know, watching a film, have decaffeinated. It's really, you know, it's there to be used exactly to suit your needs.

MN: Horses for courses, take your choice. Mark has a question for you - Mark thank you very much for your question, it's about performance project. He wants to know if caffeine can boost your performance? I don't know what kind of performance he's talking about but, we'll leave that one there...

RC: Right.

SS: Sports performance I should think.

MN: Let's hope it's....thank you for bringing that in doctor.

RC: Hi Mark, yeah caffeine - lots and lots of research papers show that the caffeine in a cup or two of coffee is sufficient to enable you to perform better at all sorts of things: running, cycling, swimming, playing tennis, and it's quite interesting if you have a couple of cups of coffee before you go to the gym. Even somebody at my age can work out for much longer before you're exhausted.

MN: OK, well that's brilliant. Angela, by the way, asked a question that was very similar to that with regard to going to the gym and having a coffee beforehand. Actually I read a fantastic newspaper article about that only a couple of months ago which said very much the same thing. That must've been a bit of a surprise for people because I guess again the bad press that coffee has got about being bad for your health, we've already said is complete nonsense, but all of a sudden they're saying 'well actually, a couple of cups of coffee before you go and do some exercise is not a bad thing'.

SS: That's right yes definitely. I mean I do work with some professional sports people and they, one of the first questions they ask is - should I give up tea and coffee, should I give up caffeine? And the answer is no, and in fact you can use it to your advantage, because you can use it in terms of getting more out of your training, increasing stamina, so...

MN: I'm assuming that professional sports people do use coffee, caffeine, tea, coffee that sort of thing as something towards their diet?

SS: I think it's funny because they tend to rely more on the sort of trendier type energy drinks, and they forget you know, that actually, a cup of coffee is sometimes more enjoyable or sometimes, you know - much cheaper! But yeah, basically what they're doing is they're using the caffeine side to get the effect that they're looking for.

MN: The whole culture, Roger, of drinking coffee has changed the way we almost run our lives now. We expect to see a coffee bar on most streets.

RC: Yes we do.

MN: And we expect to have that culture of meeting in a coffee bar. I know if you ever switch on and watch 'Friends' that's where we probably got the idea of sitting on a sofa, but it has changed the dynamics of how people socialise as well.

RC: I think it has, and I think in many ways it's for the good. It's a pleasurable thing to do, sitting round with friends having a cup of coffee, just catching up,it's enjoyable.

MN: It's almost full circle to where we came in though, when we were talking about what is the stock exchange and Lloyds of London, those sort of places.

RC: Absolutely.

SS: I mean it can be a preferable change to always going to the pub, where you've always then, got the temptation of drinking too much alcohol. I mean there's nothing wrong with again, alcohol in moderation, but unfortunately some people feel that they it's just too much for them to do.

MN: I don't want enough I want more than.

SS: Exactly. But, you know, take that out of the equation and some comfy sofas and some nice surroundings and some coffee, and maybe some sort of, you know, different types of things to nibble on other than crisps and peanuts, and you've suddenly got a nice alternative just to going to...And again, mix it up, do a bit of both.

RC: And you can drive home afterwards.

SS: Yes, exactly.

MN: There is always that as well. Della, thank you for your question. Della's question: tea, coffee, which has got more caffeine in it?

RC: Interesting question Della. Dry weight, tea actually has more caffeine in it than coffee, but because you use less coffee to make the brew, the cup, or the in-cup amount is less. A cup of tea would have about 50mg of caffeine, whereas a cup of soluble or instant coffee would be about 75, and a cup of roast and ground about 100.

MN: I see what you mean about it being an interesting question. It depends which measurement you're looking at.

RC: Yeah.

MN: Alright, let's just go back onto the whole thing about diuretics and coffee. Just because we're coming very much to the close. An important message really this one is that the people have got this misconception about coffee being a complete diuretic and it's only something you should have every now and then and you know, you shouldn't really be having too many cups of coffee when you're on a plane, all this sort of thing. It's the fact you're drinking liquid really isn't it?

SS: Yes that's right, yes. I mean if you drink a big deal of liquid it's going to go through you, there's only so much liquid the body can hold, otherwise you'd...blow up!

MN: It's not an attractive picture but I want to think about it, no bursting please!

SS: So I think, you know, people do sometimes get this perception because they tend to drink quite a lot in one go, so you'll drink say, 2 or 3 cups in the morning and then you feel, oh I have to go to the loo well, that's not surprising because you've just taken in quite a lot of liquid. But the actual effect of caffeine being a diuretic, again, as I've said before, mildly so in strong doses, but not really.

RC: Cutting in there, from a scientific point of view the caffeine is no more a diuretic than water, so as Sarah says, it's not an issue.

MN: You have to be pretty extreme for it to...and drink phenomenal amounts of it but then you've had loads of liquid anyway.

SS: Yes.

MN: OK, we're almost out of time, I just wanted to know what sort of coffee you guys normally drink really? Totally personal choice, you know, what is the perfect cup of coffee for you Roger?

RC: Very strong, very black, preferable made by somebody else.

MN: Ah, that's a very very good answer! And for you Sarah?

SS: I like my black instant in the morning, and I do like filter coffees sometimes after a meal.

MN: OK, well I'd better go and make some coffees in that case - that's my job for now. Thank you very much for joining us, thank you very much indeed for your questions, and do enjoy your coffee! Bye.