H: Hello and welcome to the Lifestyle Show brought to you by Lifelong Learning UK, I’m Glen Thompsett. Now, are you stuck in a job that you know you don’t get a lot of satisfaction out of these days, maybe it’s a job you trained for many years ago, maybe it’s a job you’re still in from when you trained many years ago, but that magic, that spark has gone from that job? Well you might also think that age and also family commitments are a bit of a barrier from you actually enjoying your job, it doesn’t actually have to be like that. The reason it doesn’t have to be like that is because you can pass on your skills that you’ve learnt to newer people. Long gone are the days of apprenticeships so the demand for skilled workers is also increasing but there also isn’t that sort of skilled person to teach those skilled people any more. You could become one of those skilled workers if you so want. An example of that is, the Olympics. Now the Olympics of course are poised to have a huge impact on the construction industry, but are there the people out there to teach those builders, if you like, those trades? Well, to tell us more I’m joined to day by information and advice service manager from Lifelong Learning UK, that’s Sarah Thomas – Sarah, thanks for coming in today. And also Martin Rowland who’s an education advisor. We’re going to talk about the whole education thing and the way that you can teach, you know pass on your skills if you like to newer people, to younger people, and also to not so younger people if you like. But what is the main problem, is there just a lack of trade out there now, what’s going on with this whole thing?

S: Ok well research by our organisation, Lifelong Learning UK has shown that colleges and training providers are finding it difficult to recruit certain vocational areas so there are particular shortages in certain subjects such as – as you’ve already mentioned – construction, so all the trades that come under the umbrella of construction, health and social care, business administration, public sector, public services, so there are quite a lot of areas where there is a shortage of trainers in those areas, so really what we’re trying to do as part of Adult Learner’s Week is promote the opportunities for people who’ve got those skills out there

H: Now Martin Rowland, you’re an Education Advisor – what are you actually advising on, are you literally going round the country telling people what they should be doing?

M: Well we do do some round the country work, but by and large we’re centred in London and people contact us, so it’s people who are thinking of making a change in coming into the education world, as a teacher or a trainer or tutor and are not quite sure a) whether they should, whether they’ve got the right sets of skills, and b) how to go about it. So we take people through what the job is like, where they might finish up working, what kind of financial support is available if they make the decision to become a trainer or a teacher, about part time and full time courses, where they can get the professional qualifications they’ll need to become fully qualified as a trainer or a teacher, so it’s that kind of advice

H: Quite a long process though, the whole teaching and learning a new trade isn’t there I suppose, and learning to become a teacher even if you’re a builder for example or a carpenter, as I once was, I left school and became a carpenter, tell you more about that a little bit later, but you’ve learnt your trade and then you’ve got to pass it onto somebody else, you know in your own mind what you want to say to these people, but you’ve got to pass teaching qualifications to do it. You’ve got to be very patient to do that, surely?

M: Well it’s amazing how many people contact us who, like you I mean they might have been working as a carpenter but they say to us “I find that the young people coming in, I really enjoy helping them, and I find that I’ve got a rapport and I do help people to learn and I enjoy that, and I’m thinking of doing that in a more formal sense” – so in the real work situation an awful lot of people, yes they’re doing the job they’re paid to do but they’re also working formally or informally with new recruits, and helping them to develop the skills, so they’ve already got some of those interpersonal skills that are so important in teaching. I mean part of the success I think, the success of a successful teacher is that they make you feel they care about you, and that you feel some kind of rapport with them and you want to learn with them and for them. You can pick up other skills, obviously that’s what the teacher training courses are about but you know a lot of people have got those skills already, it’s just a case of formalising what they do and developing some of the underpinning knowledge behind it so that they can try other things out as well

H: Sarah do you have to be a special person to be a teacher?

S: I think obviously you’ve got to – as Martin says – you’ve got to enjoy sharing your skills with other people, obviously. It can be extremely rewarding and people do it in all sorts of different settings, so it’s not necessarily just – you know people often think with adult learning that it’s just in a college setting, when in actual fact it can be – yes it’s in colleges and universities, but it can be in private training organisations, it can be in your own employment or on the job in work based learning, it can be in all sorts of different settings, adult and community settings as well. So I think of course people will enjoy it but I think also to think about the diverse nature of the sector and how you might be in quite not traditional settings as well, there’s a lot to get out of it

H: It’s all about passing on what you know though isn’t it?

S: It is

H: Do you know a lot of people willing to do that?

S: Yes certainly, I mean it has to be something that you are interested in doing, it’s not necessarily just because you have the skills you can pass on that knowledge, so there are certain talents that a teacher or trainer will have, obviously, but certainly when people come to us they’ve usually reached the point where they’ve thought, as you’ve said, that they’ve - you know they’ve kind of thought actually that is something that I think I can potentially do, and so that’s why people would come to us to find out more about the opportunities available

H: It is hugely rewarding isn’t it, because I – bringing in my own personal experience here – I do semester training down at Farnham University of Creative Arts in radio production and journalism, and I work September through to December, and it’s a great feeling passing your knowledge on to younger people who want to do what you’re doing, you know you can sort of share your own personal experiences, the fact that I still work in the industry as well you can pass that on to them and they respond in a far more positive fashion I think

M: It’s not just younger people either, I mean one of the greatest thrills I get is with people who are older, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, even older who are returning to study and they come in not having had a formal education for a while, they’re lacking confidence, they don’t think they can do things, and I mean the kick you get out of seeing them learn new skills and the thrill they get out of it, and you’re sharing in that, it’s a terrific feeling to help people to make the change that they were very nervous about doing and – don’t you find?

S: Absolutely, yes

M: It’s one of the things that keeps you going in teaching I think

H: We mentioned briefly at the top of the program that there’s a lack of apprenticeships these days. Why do you think that is, why aren’t people being taught, you know the trades any more, you know like the carpentries, the bricklaying’s – I mean they still exist but not in the huge quantities that I seem to remember back in the ‘70s and early ‘80s?

M: That’s right I mean the sort of apprenticeship you did in carpentry died out some time ago, I mean there is a modern apprenticeship now and there are quite a number of initiatives, education initiatives which are acknowledging it, as the school leaving age has risen and of course they’re now talking about making compulsory education the age of leaving 18. Some people just say I’m not interested in “academic” – in inverted commas – learning, I want to learn a skill or a trade, and so the schools, colleges, local private training organisations, businesses, are getting together in consortia around the countries so that people who are at school in a formal setting can go on day release to a college, go on day release to a business, to a company, and learn skills, including on the job skills so that prepares them in the way of you know a real life occupation let’s say, and very often from that they go into one of these modern apprenticeships which are available, and although it’s not the same as you did, it is something which is college based and work based, so there’s a partnership going on

H: Lots of questions coming in, keep your questions coming in to us by the way, we’re get through them on the screen very shortly. There’s a little box at the bottom of the screen on the computer, so fill in your question there, hit the submit button, your questions come right through to us here in the studio. Let’s get onto some of these questions then from Simon Webster, now he wants to know what’ll happen if you don’t get skilled teachers?

S: Well certainly as I’ve already mentioned we have already got a problem in certain subject areas, in so much as there aren’t the teachers there, there aren’t the trainers there to pass on the skills in the subjects that I mentioned earlier, so we’ve already kind of reached that point, and to combat that the government has brought in financial incentives for example to bring people from those industries into teaching, financial incentives to attract people in and also financial incentives to actually keep them in it, and so certainly we can give more details about that, yes

H: There’s always been this fear as well, I think a lot of people watching will think teaching isn’t a hugely paid job, you know I want to earn the big money so I’m going to stay out there in the marketplace – what would you say to those sort of people?

M: Well I mean you’re quite right a lot of people do think that. I mean going to the pay scale and being a principal of a college for example, a large college, you’re talking a 6 figure sum, so money is there, but what – I think what impresses me I think is a lot of people are saying I’ve got a job and I’m earning so much and it’s good, but I’m dissatisfied and I want to do something where I feel I’m giving something back. I mean someone was talking to me the other day for example, he rang the advice service, and he’s working in the city at the moment and he’s on a 6-figure salary and he said, “I’m bored to tears, I hate it”

H: Oh right

M: And I want to do something that involves putting something back in and getting involved with people, so he was looking to get involved with teaching to get job satisfaction, rather than the money, and you know

H: So much of it is about job satisfaction

M: Yes and I mean he was in his mid 30s, he’d gone for the money and found that’s not where it’s at for me, or you know – so he wants to come into teaching

H: Leads us nicely into our next question from Janie, thanks for getting in touch with us Janie, she wants to know “I used to” – rather she tells us “I used to work in the city as a trader, 2 years ago I quit and went and did a course at the open university in teacher training. Best decision of my life she says”

S: Fantastic

H: So that’s good news isn’t it?

S: It is

M: Absolutely. I hope the guy who rang me yesterday feels the same when he goes into teaching as well

S: Yes, absolutely

H: But again coming back to this whole apprenticeship thing, I mean kids these days, it makes me sound like a real old fuddy duddy, but you know kids they leave school these days, they want to jump straight into the money jobs, they don’t want to learn a trade any more, they want to jump straight into the high positions, the high profile jobs, earn the big money, drive the big, flash car – nothing wrong with that as an ambition but they don’t want to learn a trade necessarily that’s going to stay with them until the end of their lives do they?

M: I think you’re generalising a bit, I mean –

H: Do you think so?

M: Yes absolutely an awful lot of young people who come into colleges and training providers and so on, know what the world’s about, they want to pick up the skill, they realise they’re going to have to work to progress in their career, and yes there are some people who see the easy bug and think well I could become a millionaire overnight without really having to work, but I think they’re in the minority, I mean I’ve been in this profession now for 30-odd years and most young people are there because they want to learn, they want to progress and they know that they’ve got to work hard to get where they want to be

H: Ok, more questions coming in, John Durden’s been in touch with us, John thanks for your email, he wants to know “if I have a vocational degree but I don’t work in that vocation could I retrain as a teacher for that vocation?” Did you get that? Would you like it again?

M: I think I got that John. I mean the answer is yes. It depends how long you’ve been out, I mean clearly one of the important things about having a vocational skill is that you’ve got the experience of the real live workplace so that you’re coming in not just with the theoretical knowledge, but you can say you know last week when I was doing so and so, this happened and there’s nothing motivates learners more than somebody who is live on the job and can give you that kind of personalised feedback about what the work is about, so if John’s been out of his particular vocation area for you know 10, 20 years he won’t have that up-to-date real knowledge of that vocation area any more, so he’ll lose a bit there but certainly there’s nothing to stop him coming in. He might well find when he comes in as a teacher that he, as part of his professional development, would want to go back into whichever vocation area it is as part of his you know in-house professional development in his college to gain some more modern experience of working in that particular vocational area, but by all means don’t be put off by the fact that you’ve not been working in the area for a while

H: So Sarah how can Lifelong Learning UK help?

S: Well we offer an information and advice service to anyone who’s interested in getting into teaching or training. We’ve got detailed information about local providers of courses, and that can be courses full-time, part-time, flexible learning. We can also talk, because the actual advice and information service is staffed by people who are teachers and who have experience of teacher training themselves, so we have practitioners on that advice service, so anyone you speak to, any of the advisors will be able to not only talk to you about what you are required to do or what courses you need or how you can improve your skills, but they’ll also be able to empathise and talk to you on a personal level because they’ve come from that background and got that experience themselves

H: So would you be first port of call then for these people who want to get into teaching?

S: I would say so, absolutely yes and we can obviously send out information to people, we can talk them through the options that they’ve got available, so yes I would say we should be the first port of call yes

H: Ok yes. Web address by the way is www.lluk.org, all the details on there. More questions coming into us here today, and this is from Anthony Shute, he wants to know “which employment areas are missing teachers?” Martin?

M: Well Anthony I think we’ve touched on some of these earlier on, Sarah mentioned things like construction particularly, I mean all branches of construction, administration, engineering, health and safety, social care, public services – these are all areas in which there’s a big shortage. Maths and sciences there’s also a shortage but those are rather more academic that we’re talking about with the vocational skills here, but certainly construction is a very very difficult area to recruit people in

H: Very exciting I would imagine, you know you’re in your 40s or early 50s maybe – would that be too late to go into teaching? I mean you’ve got a raft of experience I would imagine in whatever you do, but would that be too late in life to learn to go and be a teacher?

S: Not at all no, I mean certainly when I’ve trained teachers I’ve had people up to people in their 60s who’ve been retraining. It certainly is – unlike school teaching – or maybe less so in school teaching, in adult learning you’ve got people who actually it’s extremely valuable for people to have had experience in the industry or vocation that they’re wanting to, in the area that they’re wanting to teach, so consequently you do find that the workforce is often started out at an older point because not only are people coming from those industry backgrounds, but also are continuing to work in them while they’re teaching in them at the same time, so they’re kind of offering the skills on a current basis, as Martin said before so they’re in the industry and they’re also teaching as well so their age certainly wouldn’t be a barrier

M: It’s also very common I mean people, particularly in the construction area will come off the tools as they say, and when you’re in your 40s and 50s it’s about the time when people in the industry start wanting to work off the tools and they start thinking about passing on the skills so it’s very common in the construction area for people to come in their 40s or 50s

H: So if you’re a builder then who’s fed up with those freezing cold days on the building site, climbing up the scaffolding, think about teaching, it could be a much warmer option! Anthony’s got another question actually, Anthony Shute again here – “are there any geographical areas in the UK that are particularly missing teachers?”

M: Well the research that our organisation has done suggests that the shortages are national, so there might be pockets of individual shortages but that’s not showing up in the research that we’re talking about, it is a national shortage, so across the board and across the sector, so not just colleges that private training organisations work-based learning providers, community education providers – I mean they’re all finding the same difficulties in recruitment

H: So if anybody whose watching today then decides they want to learn to teach their profession, come off the building site, come off whatever they’re doing and move into the teaching side, there is going to be a drop in salary which obviously if you’ve got a family to support that’s got to be a prime concern I would have thought?

S: Well I mean obviously there are, as we’ve mentioned, there are opportunities to get your course funded, there are particularly – I mean I know we keep saying about the shortage subjects and at this point I will say as well that although we’ve mentioned a few of them there’s quite a comprehensive list of shortage subjects, so please if anyone’s interested please do get in touch with us to find out exactly what they are, but certainly those shortage subjects attract particular financial incentives, so not only will people who are maybe training on a part-time basis be able to maybe continue in their current work, they’ll also possibly have financial incentives to encourage them as well. Also I think it’s worth mentioning that if they are doing part-time course they will be paid for the teaching that they’re dong as well so it’s not necessarily going in to do unpaid teaching and be expected to obviously support and have that huge drop in salary, so they will – they could be working in their own industry, they could be doing a bit of teaching that they’re getting paid for, and also getting their course financially subsidised as well so –

H: So earning that extra as well then?

S: Indeed

M: It’s probably worth pointing out that I mean colleges will employ people who haven’t got a teaching qualification, so if you’ve got the right vocational experience and qualifications, a college could well employ you. They’re then obliged to train you so you get a professional teaching qualifications on the job, but it means you’re employed full-time perhaps, as a teacher, trainer and you do a course to get the teaching qualification as you work. That’s how I came in and then I taught for 2 years full time before my college put me onto a teacher-training course, so it worked for me, it works still

H: Ok. You’re watching the Lifestyle Show with of course Lifelong Learning UK, do submit your questions, the little box at the bottom of the screen there, click submit, it comes through to us in the studio. Sarah’s been in touch, Sarah wants to know “I’m 55, I’ve been working in finance for the past 30 years, am I too old to start a new career?” Martin?

M: Not at all, not at all Sarah, an awful lot of people come into teaching at that stage in life, it’s very common for people to come towards the end of a career, decide that they want something else and just to put something back as people often say to me, so you would not be by any means the eldest person on your course if you wanted to retrain, and you wouldn’t be regarded as being unusual coming in to teaching for the first time at 55. Don’t let age be an issue; it really is not an issue

H: Ok a lot of folks over the years have left school with very very minimal qualifications, they’ve moved into possibly – I keep drawing on the building industry for example – again from my own experience I know a lot of guys who used to work with didn’t have lots of qualifications, a lot of them left school with no qualifications. How would that put them in, you know the position to become a teacher if they wanted, would that hamper anything at all?

M: Only – they would need qualifications in their own vocational area, so although they might not have the O Levels, GCSEs, whatever it was when they left school with you, they would presumably have a professional qualification, so they’d have City & Guilds or other qualifications in you know electronics or electrical installation or carpentry or – you know all those sets of qualifications, so they’d have those, so it’s not a case of having an academic qualification, it’s a qualification that’s relevant to what they will teach. Clearly you want to have a qualification that’s higher than the one you’re teaching

H: Right

M: So you wouldn’t expect to be at a lower stage of education than your own students. The area where they might have a difficulty is in the teacher training course has got an element of personal literacy and numeracy skills and that might be where some people who are not used to practicing written communication or not used to showing numeracy qualifications, might need some additional help, but I mean the teacher training courses do have that additional help for people who initially find – you know if I’d been working as a bricklayer for example I won’t be used to writing down what I’m doing, I demonstrated by doing it, and writing that as an exercise to describe what I’ve done might be something that I just need a little bit of help in the first place to get used to doing again

H: I guess something that might phase a lot of people becoming teachers is actually standing in front of a group of people teaching and passing on your knowledge – do you teach that to help people to overcome that problem?

S: Certainly I mean obviously as we’ve already said you must – it must be something you’re interested in and you feel that you’ve enjoyed offering your skills to somebody, so it’s obviously the training – you wouldn’t just suddenly be plonked in front of a classroom of however many people. I think it’s important to say as well, particularly in vocational areas, because teaching takes place in so many different contexts, you might be in a laboratory, you might be in a standard classroom, you might be outside on site, you might be in all sorts of different environments, so yes of course you will be expected to be talking to a group of learners but it will be in various contexts. And also in adult learning it’s more often than not – unlike schools where you might get 20-30 students in one class – you may have a group of maybe 8-10 learners that are working with you so it may be sort of less intimidating

M: Absolutely. I mean you were talking about building but let’s take another occupation like hairdressing. I mean a hairdressing lecturer will spend an awful lot of time in a salon type environment, where students are doing some of the skills and the tutor is with them and is teaching them but is teaching on a one-to-one basis with students that are practicing the skills that they’re supposed to learn, so you know this idea of being classroom bound with people in rows at desks is not really what vocational teaching an training is about, it’s much more skills based where you’re in a real life environment and you’re doing – yes perhaps with 20 learners but not as a group sitting at a desk, you’re dealing with them as they actually doing the job

H: I think that’s probably comforting to a lot of people who want to move into the teaching who are perhaps afraid of that. A very long email here from Sally Clifford, now Sally wants to know “I’m currently a qualified social worker who’s unhappy in her job. I’d love to go into teaching but don’t want to do years of studying. Is there any way I can transfer my skills and do some training without having to do the full-time – the full teacher training? Also I have a mortgage to pay so can’t afford to give up work and study full-time.” It’s going to be a problem for a lot of people I guess?

S: Certainly but I mean obviously there is the option of doing a full-time, 1 year training course, but because as we’ve already said so many different people from so many different walks of life come into teaching often in the same sort of situation with financial commitments, with family commitments, with jobs that they already have that they’re committed to as well, there are more flexible routes of coming in, so as well as the funding and financial help that’s available, you may find that you can actually do the training on a part-time basis, maybe one after noon a week, one evening a week even, and fit it in around what you’re currently doing. I think I mean yes you are obliged now if you want to teach in the sector you are obliged to work towards a teaching qualification but that can be done over either a one year full time course or on a part time basis up to five years. So it’s not necessarily that you need to get it as Martin said before you teach, it’s not as though you only need to do the initial bit which is preparing to teach in the first few months of teaching, the rest you can take your time over and do it as I say in a much more flexible way

H: Trying to make sense of this next question, Hazel’s been running her own beauty salon but is now running itself. “How can I basically get off the tools?” Do you understand that one?

M: Yes I do. Hello Hazel. Really what you need to do is to start looking at opportunities in your local environment, where the college in your local area might for example have vacancies already for some part time teaching and with the sorts of experience and qualifications that you’ve already got they might jump at the chance of employing you for a few hours a week if that’s what you’re looking for. As Sarah says you will need to get a teaching qualification, the initial one would only take 30 hours of study so it’s not a very onerous task, but that’s the way to break in, and if you like that and want to expand from a few hours a week to more, then clearly that’s something that the employer can then help you to do

H: Ok, final question from Luca. Luca wants to know “I’m an actor by trade” – actor! “And I would like to pass on my skills, what should I do?” Apart from stand at the back of the theatre and bellow and project from the diaphragm

M: Surprising how many people we get who are in –

S: Performing arts

M: Either an artist or performing arts who have exactly that question. And I mean performing arts is a mushrooming course in colleges, so lots of students want to train, they’ve all got high ambitions about what they will achieve, and to have people who are working actors or working artists to come in and teach you is absolutely exciting for them, so there are lots of opportunities where – lots of actors as you know are resting, and they can go into a college and spend a day or two days or whatever with a group of students, and the fact that you’ve got somebody coming in who is a real life working actor, albeit they’re resting at the moment is a great plus on those sorts of courses, so you’ll find that colleges will be happy to invite you in to meet their students because you’ve got that day-to-day experience that’s current and if you like it then there are ways of taking that one step further and making that a part-time or a full-time course. I mean an awful lot of the people who worked in my college in west London in the arts and media area were self-employed for half the week because they wanted to work in the industry but they needed to keep the mortgage going and they weren’t sure when the next job was coming in, in their self-employment work so they did a point 4, point 5 fractional post with us teaching and leaving time for them to do their own self-employed work and that’s very very common

H: Ok, ok. Well sadly we’re out of time, just quickly remind us of those phone numbers and websites where anybody who wants to move from what they’re doing down the tools so to speak but keep within the profession and teach people what they do, what’s the information for websites and phone numbers?

S: Ok well certainly if you’re interested in researching then you can look at our website which is www.lluk.org, you can call us or you can email us and we’re open from 9-5.30 Monday – Friday, and you can call us on 020 7936 5798 or email at advice@lluk.org so please get in touch

H: Ok well Sarah Thomas and also Martin Rowland thanks very much for joining us on the Lifestyle Show today

S: Thank you

M: You’re very welcome thank you

S: Thanks