As parents we're becoming more aware that dangers to our kids don't just lie on our streets - the internet and online world can also pose a number of serious risks. Yet despite this, millions of us still lack the basic knowledge to safely and effectively monitor our children's internet usage.

Did you know that a child can't legally use a social networking site until they are 13 years old? Perhaps not. And how often do you think to check which sites your child has been visiting? Many of us might not know that it's possible for children to hide any dubious internet activity by simply deleting their browser history!

According to research by TalkTalk, many parents are still letting their child loose on the internet without having any filtering software on their family computer.

While we might never know what our kids get up to online, it's important for them to be able to surf the internet safely. In our live and interactive Web TV show renowned child psychologist Professor Tanya Byron will be giving you some top advice on protecting your child online. You can submit your questions ahead of the show or ask them live when it premieres on Friday 20th November. 

For more information visit www.talktalk.co.uk/brightersparks

L: Lis Speight, host
T: Professor Tanya Byron, child psychologist and author

H: Hello I’m Lis Speight and welcome to the Parenting Show as parents we're becoming more aware that dangers to our kids don't just lie on our streets - the internet and online world also carry huge risks. Yet despite this, millions of us still lack the basic knowledge to safely and effectively monitor our children's internet usage. According to research by TalkTalk, many parents are still letting their child loose on the internet without having any filtering software on their family computer. While we might never really know what our kids get up to online, it's important for them to be able to surf the internet safely. Well joining me today to discuss this is child psychologist and author Professor Tanya Byron, thanks very much for coming in Tanya, lovely to see you today

T: And you too, thank you

H: Now remember we are live today so if you’ve got any questions at all about your kids and the internet and how to keep them safe, then do get them into us and Tanya will try to answer them for you. All you have to do is type your name and where you’re from, and your question, in the box that’s on the screen, press submit – it will come through to us here in the studio by the wonders of the internet, and we’ll try to get through as many as we can during the course of the show. But let’s talk a little bit first about the research that was done by Talk Talk; it seems that parents are really worried about the dangers of the internet.  How worried should they be?  Is it right for them to worry?

T: Well I think we live in a world where we’re all worried about everything, and I think we’re so worried about children that I think sometimes I think we’re too worried

H: Yes

T: I mean there are dangers in the real world and there are dangers in the online world, I mean it’s part of life, it’s part of living and there are risks to living in the real world and there are risks to being in the online world.  I suppose what really fascinates me about the research that I’ve done with Talk Talk, in this particular research that you’ve been referring to, is while substantial numbers of parents are really worried about this, substantial numbers of parents are actually not talking to their kids about –

H: Right

T: Online safety.  Not helping their kids think about how to develop their own online safety “skills” if you like.  So there’s a bit of a mismatch. There’s a lot of worry but there’s not very much action

H: Right.  A lot of children – I think the research shows about 60% - about 60% of children are actually spending two hours a day on the internet completely unsupervised and that’s not really a very good idea is it?

T: Well there’s lots of issues in that.  First of all how much time is too much time on screen?  Kids – you know – are very attached to screens these days, and there are some fantastic things that they can do online

H: Well that’s it isn’t it, the internet is a great tool isn’t it?

T: Amazing, the benefits, the opportunities, the learning, the play, the socialising, all those kinds of things, but you know how long is long enough and how can we help kids have a balanced kind of lifestyle diet, when do you turn off the screen and go outside?  So these are things that as parents we should be thinking about and deciding, for our young kids especially.  But also you know as children are going online, I suppose for any parent, the best way to put – to say this is when my kids were really small they knew what a road was, and they knew what a car was, but I didn’t one day open the front door and say well ok, you know what a road is and you know what a car is, so you just go and cross the road and we’ll see how you do

H: Yes

T: And I think it’s the same with technology.  We know our kids understand computers, they’re embedded in digital worlds, and they’re doing exciting, amazing things, but there are risks out there and we have to give them some of our wisdom and support to enable them to build good critical evaluation skills, good skills of judgement, so as they get older and they do become more independent in their online living if you like, we know that we can trust them and if there are problems, hopefully they can trust us enough to come and talk to us about it

H: But parents still are not really that clued up.  Why are parents so rubbish at computing compared with the kids? Is it just a generational thing?

T: That’s a big part of it, you’re right.  I mean you know kids grew up with technology, we didn’t.  I mean somebody once said, I think it’s quite a good phrase, children are digital immigrants – children are digital natives, sorry and we are the digital immigrants

H: Right

T: They’ve grown up with this stuff, they understand it, and actually as a parent or even as a teacher, or as a grandparent because a lot of grandparents do a lot of childcare now

H: The silver surfers – my mum’s very good on the internet, I have to say

T: Yes mine too, and it’s great, but you know for adults that haven’t grown-up with the technology it’s really difficult to educate or parent a child if you know that they actually know more about what it is you’re talking to them about!

H: Which doesn’t happen because you always say “mummy knows best, do as you’re told” whereas actually they do probably know more than you do, don’t they?

T: Oh completely.  So it’s how can we build a relationship with our kids that we can calm down, not panic, try and understand what they’re doing, learn as much as we can, and be effective parents online as well as offline.  Parenting isn’t just an offline thing any more, it’s all about e-parenting now as well

H: So what sort of dangers do children face?  Because we see a lot in the press about people meeting up with strangers from chat rooms, I mean what sort of real dangers can a child face?  Because they’re locked up in their bedroom on their computer and you think well they’re not getting run over, they’re not falling out of a tree, they’re kind of ok aren’t they ? I mean what actual dangers are there for children?

T: Well isn’t it ironic that actually the more we’re stopping children having real world freedoms, the more we’re pushing them into online spaces where we’re then not helping them think about the risks there

H: Yes

T: It’s kind of ironic really that we think we’re protecting them but actually maybe we’re not.  Look, the internet, it’s a global community, it’s populated by human beings.  Anonymous ones though, so there is the added risk that not everyone who says who they are, are who they are

H: Right

T: Actually the biggest issue for children online, and we know this from countless research and it’s great that we’re talking today because it’s part of – it’s Anti-Bullying week, is cyber bullying. That’s the biggest problem for kids.  Yes there are people who try and groom children online, and there are some extremely awful cases where these things happen, but that isn’t the predominant risk

H: Right

T: The predominant risk is bullying

H: Everyday bullying – yes

T: But bullying that becomes really quite nasty

H: Yes

T: Because look you know when you and I were kids a nasty word at the end of the day at the bus stop would be forgotten the next day.  Now it’s IM’d, it’s social networked,

H: IM – instant messenging

T: Instant messaging, absolutely, and before you know it, a small thing has become a massive thing and the next day it’s a huge problem for everybody.  So we need to talk to kids about that, we need to help kids think about their behaviour, we need to think about – help them think about how they communicate.  It’s actually much easier typing a nasty thing and pressing the send button

H: Yes

T: Than it is me saying it to your face, because you look sad and you look hurt. All this stuff – as soon as kids are going online from the age of 4 and 5, we need to be having conversations with them at home, in school about “netiquette” about responsible behaviour, about privacy, about not talking to strangers online, about keeping your personal details to yourself, about time spent online, about what to do if someone tries to contact you, where can you go to be safe, who can you ask for help?  And all those things and help them grow into responsible digital citizens

H: So set those guidelines for the internet as you would for the real world – stranger danger, out there on the street, stranger danger out there on the internet as well.  So teach your kids, don’t just ignore it

T: Teach them to be sensible and to be aware.  You know I’m not saying let’s kind of frighten the whole generation of children

H: No

T: Because I mean I think we’ve got to get a balance here, and we’re not very good at balancing our fear and anxiety about children, and we tend to be over-anxious and over-protectionist, and I think that the online space is so valuable because for a lot of children it gives them a whole new set of opportunities

H: Yes

T: Children with learning difficulties, children with disabilities, children who are socially excluded or who don’t have opportunities because of their circumstances, if they live in socio-economic deprivation – the internet, it’s like a huge democratic place where everybody can be and have the same opportunities

H: The same access to everything

T: Yes

H: So you don’t have to have a whole load of Encyclopaedia Britannicas that your mum and dad have bought you because they’re rich, because everyone can have the information to do their homework, which is fantastic actually isn’t it?

T: But what we don’t talk to children about is something called reliability of source, Wikipedia isn’t the only place online where you can find information, so again kids are going there and they’re doing it, but they need a bit of help from us so that they understand what is – you know what is appropriate, what is inappropriate, what is dangerous, what is risky – and then they can go and just have the most incredible online lives

H: Ok well let’s move onto some of your questions now, we’ve had lots coming in.  I’ve had one in from Jude Carey, he says “my 11 year old son wants a laptop but I’d rather not give it to him because I’m afraid what he might watch on the internet, whilst locked away in his room.” So when is a good age to give someone - give a child a computer in their own bedroom?  When can you sort of trust them?

T: Well for me this is – I mean this is actually a parenting relationship that starts from the really early years, now this boy’s 11 but actually I would say as soon as kids go online, we start parenting them online, so hypothetically when they are 11, in the same way as this 11 year old son – I have an 11 year old son, you know my son now goes to the local shops on his own, he can meet his mates and go and get a cake or whatever in the local shopping area, and I trust him to do that.  I also trust him to have greater independence online because I’ve grown the skills with him

H: Right

T: I think, you know one has to be careful about when children lock themselves away, with computers but I think that we also have to respect that kids want to be independent and 11, 12, 13, they’[re moving into puberty, they;’re moving into a time in their life where they want to create their own identity

H: Yes

T: So it’s a balance, it’s a difficult balance, but I think Jude if you – you know if there’s a good relationship with the son and if there’s a good trust there and a good respect, and a good dialogue, then there’s no harm in him having a laptop, but just some rules, do a bit of monitoring and see how you go

H: Because you can set the filters and what have you, so that the kids can’t be looking at sites that they shouldn’t be – we all know what they are.  So it’s just worth looking into that isn’t it, getting that software loaded on

T: There are filters, and filtering packages are really good with younger kids but as kids get older and want to actually go online to do homework and research, filters can be quite restrictive

H: Right

T: And actually filters again I think are really good with younger kids but also be aware that a lot of older kids know how to circumvent filters

H: Yes

T: So - it’s part of the solution

H: They’re cleverer than we think

T: Absolutely.  It’s part of the solution, but it’s not the only solution and it’s got to be part of a package of parenting skills if you like

H: Yes. Because you don’t want to appear over-nosy, we don’t want to be over their shoulder the whole time.  How do you find that balance between giving them their privacy and sort of worrying about what they’re up to, because you can look at the history can’t you but then they can delete that

T: Yes

H: So I guess it is a bit of a fine line but you’ve got to make your own way through it I suppose – depends on the child, depends on the parent

T: Yes and of course there is the POS –

H: Parent over shoulder

T: Parent over shoulder yes, I saw – one of my children was doing some homework the other day that looked remarkably sophisticated, and suddenly this screen jumped up and I just saw POS being typed quickly, and I said ok, and the rule in my household is if we’re getting a lot of POS, if we’re getting a lot of laptop lids down then actually I am going to ask you more questions.  I don’t want to see everything you’re doing, but I don’t want to feel that every time I come in you’re doing something that you know I wouldn’t be comfortable with

H: Exactly

T: Because then that makes me worry about you.  So it’s that kind of conversation, that kind of relationship

H: Yes because there’s gambling, there’s all sorts of things these kids have been getting up to, but you have to trust your own kids don’t you and hope that they’re telling you the truth.  Now we’ve had another question in from Sean.  He says “my son seems really good on the internet and it’s all new to me, but I’m a bit embarrassed to admit I don’t really understand it all.” Who does?  What should he do?  Can he go on a course or something or –

T: Well I mean he could actually if Sean feels he’s got the skills to do this which I’m sure he has, he could go onto the TalkTalk website and download the Brighter Sparks guide

H: That looks fantastic actually, I looked at it last night and it is really, really good.  It’s really informative and not too scary

T: Thank you

H: It’s good

T: What I tried to do in this Brighter Sparks guide which I’ve written with TalkTalk, is to think about what do parents really want to know, and you know parents don’t want loads of techy knowledge and they don’t really want to have all the stuff that’s just going to confuse them.  What parents want, what I want as a parent is – I want to understand the basics of what my kids are doing enough to be able to have a sensible conversation with them, and to – and to think about with them ways in which I expect the same behaviour that they show in the real world to happen online.  And so I’ve done, at the beginning Sean actually you could take an e-parenting test, so he could work out how much he knows, where he’s got knowledge gaps, where his knowledge errors are, so we can help him with a bit of that. Then I do quite a lot of stuff around child development, how children’s brains change, how that has an impact on the way they interact with technology and technology impacts on them.  And then I talk much more specifically about what children are doing, so what’s the difference between IMing, instant messenging and social networking and blogging, and web surfing and downloading and chatrooms, and just help parents understand that, and suggest some clear rules that would be really useful to put in place in the home, as a way of saying this is our charter at home, this is how we are going to be online and the more I know you can behave like that online the more I  trust you and the more freedom you can have

H: Ok.  If you want to get that information, go to the website which is talktalk.co.uk/brightersparks, I’ll give you that at the end of the programme as well, but it is definitely worth going on there, there’s a lot of information.  Moving on to more of your questions, we’ve had a lot in about how long should kids spend on the computer.  We were always nagging that they spend too long on the television, and now it’s too long on the computer.  We’ve had one in from Sarah Irby.  She says “I’m worried about the long term health risks to my children, just looking at a computer screen for hours on end.  How can I encourage a balance in their life?” You touched on that earlier actually, that’s quite a difficult one.  How do you drag them away from the computer and get them to do something else?

T: Well it’s interesting I was doing some – I was - at the back of the Brighter Sparks guide I’ve written some rules.  Cool rules for Brighter Sparks so for kids themselves, because I think kids have to take ownership of this, this is for them, it’s not us kind of making them do things, dragging them off computers, it’s about helping them think about how they want to manage their own behaviour, and I was talking to some kids when I was writing these and saying you know, how can we think about ways of talking to other kids about this, and one little kid said look, I’d like to eat chocolate cake at every meal but I know I can’t, but when I do have chocolate cake I really enjoy it.  And I think that’s quite a sensible way of thinking about it, in life everything needs to be a balance and yes looking at a screen for hours on end is not going to be good for anybody, for their eyes, and also in terms of experience.  So I think look at how much screen time your kids have, television, internet, video games – you know, Nintendos, all the things that kids are doing.  And then for you as a parent make a decision about how long you think your child should be spending looking at screens every day and set a rule, and don’t be afraid to say no

H: Yes.  It can get very addictive though, the internet, I mean we all know that.  I start looking at houses on the internet and sort of two hours later I’m still looking at houses on the internet.  Online gaming I think particularly – for boys, they can spend literally hours on that.  How long is too long?

T: Well I think – I mean I have heard statistics, particularly with gaming where there are kids who are spending many, many hours, and also what you have to be careful with, with the online games is there are a lot of things called Guilds where you’re part of a group of people, of characters, who then play

H: Right

T: Together.  Now this is fun and some of these games are amazing and educational, and fun and it’s all about strategy and it’s all good, but if you’ve got Guild members who live in different parts of the world, I’ve – you know kids will get up at 2 in the morning to then go and join their Guilds to play

H: Oh my goodness. Wow

T: So I think it’s about looking out for changes in behaviour in your child, but I think you know if a child is spending more than sort of an hour / hour-and-a-half a day looking at screens then one has to think well when are they going outside, when are they climbing trees, when are they breathing air, when are they reading a book, when are they sitting down and talking to a human being?  And we’ve got to get a balance here, and I think parents just need to set rules and enforce them, and that’s our job and that’s what we should do

H: Yes ok.  Final question in, we’re nearly out of time actually, one in from Whitney.  She says “I want to talk to my kid about what they’re doing on the internet but don’t feel like I know enough to even broach the subject. Where do I start?”

T: Well I would say the Brighter Sparks Guide!

H: Yes

T: I think – I think really what I would say to Whitney is you know, don’t feel afraid of what your kids know and what you don’t.  It’s completely understandable and actually don’t feel afraid to ask your kids to help you understand.  You know my kids often show me how to take shortcuts or do things and it’s really helpful, and we have a laugh at how inept I am and how much they know, and that’s fine because it build a nice, collaborative relationship. But download the guide, read the guide, take the e-parenting test, really think about what are the things that you, Whitney, as a mother, want to be doing for your children in order for them to be safe, happy, healthy human beings in the real world, and then just think about how you can take those rules into the online world and with your children find ways that they can understand them, learn them, be them, grow them, be independent, safe, digital, happy human beings

H: Ok.  Because the internet is an incredible tool at the end of the day isn’t it, we mustn’t lose sight of that, it is so useful and they will live their lives by it which is you know – we didn’t do that as kids did we

T: Yes

H: Times are a-changing, we’ve got to try and move with it haven’t we?

T: Well I think the internet isn’t a tool for kids, I think it’s part of their life

H: Yes

T: And I think that – you know – there are things that are happening online to kids that are really unsettling, cyber bullying for example, and as adults I think we’ve just got to get our acts together.  We’ve got to really understand what our kids are doing.  It’s not that complicated.  I think we’ve got to stop panicking, and start just parenting

H: Ok well Tanya wise words there, thanks so much for coming and talking to us about this

T: Thank you

H: If you want any more information you can go to the website and download that guide which is absolutely fantastic.  It’s talktalk.co.uk/brightersparks.  Well happy surfing everybody and we’ll see you next time on the Parenting Show, bye bye