Vintage, oaked, appellation? Chardonnay, Chablis, Pinot noir? When it comes to choosing a bottle of good wine, the jargon can get in the way of really understanding what it's all about. Phrases such as "All I'm getting is tinned lychees" and "It stinks of sweaty saddles" are enough to put anyone off battling their way through the jungle of wine terms and phrases.

Does everyone swirl, sniff, slurp and spit? Can you really get a good bottle for under a fiver? Do regions and vintages actually matter? When do you drink them and can you afford them?

Phillip Ryan joins us Tuesday 27th September at 1700 to help guide us through the world (or at least the new world) of wine. Find out how you can avoid expensive mistakes and get it right every time. Start selecting, buying and drinking wine with confidence.

Presenter: Murray Norton (MN)
Guest: Phillip Ryan (PR)

MN: Hello and welcome to today's web chat. It's good to have you with us. Now if I was to offer you a glass of wine and I was going to offer you a glass of wine with mouldy orange peel, and wet nappies and nail varnish remover, you probably wouldn't fancy it very much and I don't blame you, but that's the world of wine descriptions, which quite frankly have gone barking mad. To help us de-mystify the whole scenario I'm very pleased to say we have the 'McWilliams Guide' and the 'McWilliams Guide To De-Mystifying Wine & Wine Language'. I'm delighted to say that chief wine maker at McWilliams is Phillip Ryan who's joined us here in the studio. Good to have you with us Phillip. Thanks for joining us.

We're going to get some questions from you the viewer right now. See the little box at the bottom of your screen there, just fill in your question about wine, wine drinking, different types of wine particularly of the Australian brand, then I think you'll find Phillip has one or two things to say about that. Also about de-mystifying wine and there's plenty of that. Now this survey that went out along with the guide said that one in five British women thought that a full bodied wine meant it was made with fat grapes. It's hardly surprising though because the whole wine industry has just mushroomed hasn't it?

PR: It's grown so dramatically over the last twenty years and now we have a whole raft of new consumers, which is fantastic. So the industry is growing very quickly and I'm glad to say that the volumes, England is our number one market in the world and we're very much enjoying its growth that's happening here, it's fantastic.

MN: Ok well it has been a great growth as you said and it's not surprising that the knowledge hasn't caught up with the wines themselves. We're talking about McWilliams Wines here. J.J. McWilliams obviously was the founder of McWilliams Wines

PR: Yes it goes back a long way. J.J. established the brand back in 1877 so McWilliams are very well established, got vineyards and wineries in Australia. We spread right through Australia. Our head office is Sydney but we're in New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia and we also have vineyard resources in Western Australia. Our company is in its sixth generation of family control now and we're enjoying the ride.

MN: You're right and we're talking about New World Wines we are of course talking about a winery here in McWilliams Wines. Almost 130 years old and still a New World, New World really refers to wines made outside of the 'old world' established countries, the Americas, South America, Australia, New Zealand?

PR: That's right yes. The New World is really the follow on of civilisation. You look at the wine industry began 10,000 years ago, so there's nothing new about the wine industry, and it followed with the Greeks and the Romans through into Europe and now the Europeans have brought it through to the New World so its part of our culture, part of our life

MN: Ok so the survey certainly said that we had not as much knowledge as we thought we might have about wines, but there was also a guide that goes along with it which takes us through how to taste wine and some of the tasting notes, some of the flowery language that's been coming back and forth, and I think it's probably a good excuse for us to have a drink of wine.

PR: Let's do that

MN: Who needs an excuse anyway Phillip? What wine are we tasting here to start off with?

PR: We'll start with the Semillon Sauvignon Blanc. It's a blend of the two varieties Semillon and Sauvignon Blanc and they're two varieties which really do compliment each other beautifully. The wine is made as a very fresh and very flavoursome style, very good with seafood particularly. It's a wine which has not had the influence of any oak maturation, that type of thing. It's just a pure expression of grapes and these two varieties give the impression of almost lemon citrusy characters. They're very fresh, citrus flavours, acid flavours on the palate and goes great with food.

MN: When we're talking about tasting wine which I know you give some great lines for in the guide, we need to swirl it round, that's the first thing

PR: Exactly, yeah. First of all have a look at the wine in the glass and the wine should look great, should look glossy. It should be absolutely bright and have a nice shine to the wine

MN: I'm glad we polished these glasses out

PR: It shouldn't have any cloudiness or any deposit in there so the wine should look correct.

MN: That's what they term as the appearance of the wine

PR: The appearance yeah, and then in order to get the best aromas or bouquet or whatever they call it, or the smell as that's what it is, give the glass a swirl, little throw of some wine around the glass give it more surface area so you then get more of the aromas coming out

MN: So sniff next is it?

PR: That's it and all the senses then create the flavours that are about to come in the tasting of the wine, so again it just takes you through the appearance and the aroma and then the taste. It's really what wine is all about

MN: The taste, I'm looking forward to that bit. That's the important bit. Good question from Jason actually. There are a lot of experts in wine that you've obviously come across, some of the famous ones that we see over here, people like Jilly Goolden and Oz Clarke, people like that. Jason wants to know, Jason thank you very much for your question, he said "What on earth are they doing when they're going off on one talking about all sorts of weird things like the smelling of gooseberries and old tyres. Are they just looking for different ways of saying the same thing?"

PR: I think the industry now in terms of people like Oz Clarke is so sophisticated that these people that have been in the industry for a long, long time and they've taken it to a very high level of sophistication. So they're looking at secondary flavours and aromas and just trying to dissect the wine so they can separate …there are so many products out there. There are tens of thousands of wines so people with very acute palates then can pick up the secondary aromas and flavours. The smell of old tyres actually is not I think a great supporting flavour you look for in wines,

MN: Pretty negative flavour.

PR: Yeah, pretty critical contribution to the wine

MN: Alright, well Jason thank you for your question on that

PR: Gooseberries is good, gooseberries is fab. It's a good result because in wine now we tend to judge it in terms of fruit flavours, so gooseberry or lychees is a character which we often see in Sauvignon Blanc.

MN: Talking about Sauvignon Blanc, a wine I happen to like, Olivia also likes it. Thank you for your question Olivia, Olivia wants to know, she says "Rows and rows and rows of Chardonnay reasonably priced all in the British supermarkets, difficult to get hold of reasonably priced, good Sauvignon Blanc, is there a reason for that? Is it a more expensive wine to produce? Is it just in vogue at the moment?"

PR: That's a good question. I think Chardonnay has taken the world by storm. Probably twenty years ago it became really the flavour of white wine in the world and particularly in the New World of Wine. So it's grown extensively, probably slightly more economically, there's probably less Sauvignon Blanc available so therefore it will be a supply problem I think that accordingly will reflect on price.

MN: Yeah, anyway Olivia if you're looking at this right now which you obviously are the J.J. McWilliams wine is the one to have. This is a blend of the two grapes. PR: It's almost 50 / 50 of the two grapes so they each compliment each other. The Sauvignon Blanc has a very interesting aroma and those very nice, spicy flavours, but then Semillon is really the foundation of the wine. There's citrus from lemon in there and there's lovely, broad spectrum of flavours which supports the Sauvignon Blanc, so the two are a perfect marriage a marriage in heaven.

MN: It is a marriage in heaven and a very good marriage it is as well, and if you're wondering why we're not spitting this out, it's cos it's too good, and actually there's something else. We're both holding it right down at the bottom of the stem. There is a reason for that isn't there?

PR: Yes, if you hold it round the actual glass itself then you tend to warm the wine up, and you get actually a better swirling action when you hold the stem. It's just more relaxing and you get used to it and just don't do anything else.

MN: It's what you do all day long in that job you've got there Phillip.

PR: That's right

MN: Great job you've got there

PR: You get paid for it sometimes too

MN: Really? Imagine getting paid for drinking wine, what a terrible thing to be doing. We've got some good questions coming in, thank you very much indeed for those. Don't forget we're already up and running for about the last ten minutes now so time is ticking away, only twenty minutes left to go. If you've got a question there's a little box at the bottom. All you've got to do with that little box at the bottom is just fill it in and just write your question down for us now, we'll get it answered by Phillip just as soon as we possibly can. As much as I'm reluctant to let go of that one, I'm going to let go of that one so that we can taste the next of the wines which again is a white wine. What is the white wine that we've got?

PR: This again is a blend but it's a blend of Semillon and Chardonnay, so here we're now moving into a different spectrum of wine flavour. We're looking to more the full bodied style because this particular wine, the Chardonnay fraction has spent some time matured in oak, so straight away that changes the whole, the flavour spectrum of the wine, the oak enriches the wine and gives it more flavours which you don't normally see, and also you notice the colour has changed

MN: Much more golden

PR: Much more golden, that is the effect from being stored in oak barrels

MN: Ok so you're going to get a slightly more oak flavour from all of this. Jeremy with a question and he said "Why is the Australian wine market so dominant in the UK?" They couldn't be further apart in terms of distance, but is there an affinity? I don't know what it is

PR: Maybe it's The Ashes

MN: Let's not go there for the moment, let's certainly not go there

PR: Again about twenty years ago, the Australian Chardonnay production grew quite significantly and we had an opportunity then to export to the UK and it just took off. The descriptors used by many of the wine writers here at the time was the wine to them was 'Sunshine in a glass' because it had this tremendous fruit flavours. We expressed the fruit flavours as peach and melon, and all those sort of tropical end of the spectrum, very, very delicious, quite high in alcohol compared to the previous wines so more full bodied, and we found then with time that what worked so well for us in the UK was this blending it with Semillons. Semillon then gave the wine a firmer, acidic backbone and made the wine richer again, so it's been a fantastic blend this Semillon Chardonnay and something that we sell a tremendous amount of here in the UK

MN: Ok, well Jeremy thank you very much indeed for your question, and Bruce wants to know, that's a great name isn't it? Someone called Bruce has actually written in. Thank you Bruce for your question, we're talking Australian wines. We're going to get to taste this blend here with the Chardonnay very, very shortly. Where are your vineyards and you were saying earlier they're all over the place, aren't they. They're dotted everywhere. Does the location make a great deal of difference to the different wines that you produce?

PR: Tremendous impact, wines reflect where they're grown, the environment, the micro-climate, the macro-climate, soil type, the rainfall, all that seems to have a tremendous impact. So our company has been around for 130 years, 140 years and even though we were initially based in New South Wales we now have resources, vineyards and wineries in Victoria and in South Australia, and now into Western Australia, so from there you get a very big spectrum of fruit flavours and we grow Chardonnay right across the whole area. So it's like I suppose London to Moscow is sort of the distance we grow Chardonnay, so that's the flavour differences that we can get.

MN: So flavour difference is dependant on where it's grown. Bruce thank you very much for your question as well. Let's just talk about this wine that we've got here, completely different. How should I be tasting by the way because we talked about swirling it round, we talked about smelling it, what about the taste of a wine? How do we taste a wine properly because I end up dribbling or I make a right old mess?

PR: Well if you want to get the best value out of the wine and you're interested in getting all those secondary flavours, then what I tend to do is sort of slurp on it, is you know draw air through the wine while it's in your mouth and allow the wine to roll around your palate.

MN: The sort of thing you do when you're tasting but not when you're in good company,

PR: That's right, yeah

MN: If you'll pardon the expression

PR: If you do it at the dinner table in front of guests then you might get, you know a bit of a stare, but it's

MN: You hear the sound there? That was a lovely sound wasn't it? There was a lot of air getting in there. How would you describe this? You're the expert here, you tell me, because to me that's got much more oomph behind it

PR: Yes certainly a lot more flavour in terms of weight. The flavours there tend towards that tropical and melon end of the fruit spectrum, so I always go back to primary fruits because that's probably the best description and people can recognise most easily. On the palate also is a slight vanilla character which is coming from the oak, but its not dominating, it's just in the background.

MN: Not too strong. I've tasted a lot of Chardonnay that's been an awful lot stronger than this. This is a Semillon Chardonnay, a 50 / 50 blend between

PR: It's actually slightly higher than that, it's actually about 60-70% Semillon in there, and the Chardonnay there then just fills out that wine beautifully and it doesn't dominate with oak so you're not getting that, what some people complain about as woody flavour, and a bitter flavour. What we try to do with the McWilliams is produce softness in the wine but fruit flavour. What the idea is, fruit driven wines is sort of our motto that we're trying to achieve.

MN: Ok so its fruit driven, it's a 2004, I've noticed that, which makes it a very young wine

PR: Very young wines yes

MN: And these are made for opening and drinking now. These aren't wines you're going to store for ten or fifteen years and try to get good taste out of them

PR: No these wines are really meant to enjoy in the youth where you can see the fruit flavours and enjoy the freshness of the wines where they do compliment food so well

MN: Well we're half way through and we haven't even got to the red wines yet so I'm going to snatch that out of your hand as quickly as anything and move on to those reds there. This is a whistle stop tour of tasting. Actually I've said this many times before, probably the best way to taste a red wine is to get two or three different types of red wine so you can compare, because you tend to have a bottle of wine with your dinner or just on its own sociably and then its two nights later or whatever it is when you taste the next one. Your taste buds have changed haven't they?

PR: They do, again your palate varies depending on the weather and how you feel personally about things, but red wines really, if I have a favourite direction reds are my favourite because they deliver so much and they're the sort of wines you can drink after a meal sitting down relaxing and enjoying the evening.

MN: While you're pouring that one out question actually come in from Gary. Gary thank you for your question as well. He said he was always led to believe that red wines should age for about five years to get the best flavour out of them. Is that really true or does it depend on the wine?

PR: It very much depends on the wine, the region it comes from, and the variety it's made from. So the red wines of today, the modern red wines are so good now early in their life they're wines that you can enjoy very young. In the past, going back you know years ago reds tended to need time in bottle to soften and develop but in the modern wine making of today we can get these in the bottle and drink virtually within twelve months or so. This wine has been in bottle for about six to eight months and it really is now a great drink.

MN: This is the Shiraz Merlot. For those in the Old World it used to be a Shiraz Syrah, a Syrah grape but the New World calls it Shiraz

PR: Shiraz or Syrah

MN: What a combination

PR: I've heard 'Shy – raz' even

MN: Shiraz Merlot, is this again a split down the middle blend of the two?

PR: Yes, again slightly more dominant in Shiraz but the Merlot there is if you like the softening effect of the wine. Shiraz tends to be a great variety for Australia. It's probably the most recognised red variety now for Australia so it really put us on the map as a red producing country, and its grown in every bit of culture area just like Chardonnay, so in the warmer areas it tends to be flavours of raspberry even and as you go down into the cooler parts of Australia, the South, you start getting this lovely pepper and those sort of flavours and spicy flavours which come through, so it's a great wine.

MN: Good blend of two great grapes

PR: Great varieties yeah

MN: Whilst we're talking about that, I hope that sort of half answers Jim's question because he was saying that you know he loves the big, fat Australian wines, the big, heavy duty jobs that talking about all the things you're talking about there, lots of plum, lots of raspberry. Heavy flavours in there and the softness as well, but what really is the taste difference between going for a Merlot or a Shiraz on their own? I know you've got the best of both bottled in this one here Jim but if you were talking about them separately, the difference? The Merlot would be softer?

PR: Yeah much softer and almost plumy sort of flavours whereas the Shiraz would be firmer, the flavours would be in the direction of spicy rather than the fruit driven but there would be always a berry background. There's a berry sort of flavour that comes through Shiraz, and you can get Shiraz from some areas of Australia which almost taste like chocolate. You know they're really intense and that's probably what he's referring to because Australia's become recognised now as one of the leading producers of this variety and we're lucky to have it. It's our biggest production grape variety now in Australia.

MN: Works with the climate, works with the soil and it works with the customers certainly. Jim thank you very much indeed for your question on that. I'm going to get round to tasting this. Again swirl round, have a quick sniff of it, you're looking at the wine when you're holding it down though, what are you actually doing with it there?

PR: Just getting a bit of the white background of the label there and just looking at the colours. They're very attractive colours, almost a purple, crimson sort of colour

MN: Yes there's a tinge, there's like a purple, violet bit just coming through on the very edge.

PR: So that you know again looks very attractive on the table and it show the youth of the wine and all those lovely fruit flavours that then accompany that wine, so it makes it quite a joyous drink

MN: It is a joyous drink indeed, very, very good, and that's 2003 the J.J. McWilliam Shiraz Merlot that we're tasting there. We've got one wine to go and we are rapidly running out of time so if you have got a question please make it very, very quick to us and we can get that through. Let me take that glass out of the way for you there and we'll come back to these glasses later, I'm sure we will. Just a question in from Tim while you're pouring the next wine which is actually a Cabernet Merlot

PR: It's a Cabernet Merlot yeah

MN: Tim wants to know as a wine maker as you are "Do you have a favourite wine? Is there a wine that you would reach for more than any other?"

PR: No I think my favourite wine is a good wine

MN: Hey that's a very good cop out isn't it?

PR: And yeah I think wine, like children, they're all great, they're just different

MN: They're just all different

PR: And the wines change, the flavours actually change depending on the temperature, as I said before and the environment you're in so, you know you choose a wine because of the occasion rather than because of what the wine is.

MN: Sure, did you get into the wine making industry at a very early age, or was it in the blood was it?

PR: Yeah I started in it when I was 19 years of age, with McWilliams so I've been there a long, long time, and I was very lucky, my parents are wine drinkers and this is way, way, long ago, and my father spent quite a bit of time in Europe, in France and that sort of thing and my mother had been there with him, so wine was something that I was very comfortable with as a child. It was in the house and you know it was just something that was a beverage.

MN: Perfect

PR: When I joined the wine industry it seemed quite natural for me to be doing it.

MN: Absolutely yes, second nature to you. Now this is the Cabernet Merlot, which again a blend of two wines

PR: Yeah two varieties, Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot and this is known in the New World as a Bordeaux Blend so it's the great marriage of the two classic varieties from Bordeaux, and again you get the balance of the two. The Cabernet Sauvignon has the richness and the great weight. It's supposed to be you know the prince of grapes the Cabernet Sauvignon, and then the Merlot is this beautiful plumy, which the description of Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet is always said to have a hole in it because it has this fairly strong tannin finish, but then the addition of the Merlot plugs the hole as it is. So that's the description wine makers use and it makes the wine complete. So there again it's a marriage made in heaven

MN: There we go, two great varieties put together and you get more and more of a nose as I said, more of an aroma, it's more fruity when you smell it, and actually when you hold it up, what they talk about, the legs that run down the glass, those are almost the transparent tiers of alcohol

PR: The tiers yeah, the alcohol yeah

MN: Has this got a strong alcoholic content?

PR: It's up in the 13, 13.5% area, so the normal sort of style of wine making now is in that area. That's a level of ripeness in the grapes and once you get to that area of natural ripeness then you are getting all the flavours you want. You've got the concentration of flavours in the skin and in the juice, and you've got the sugar there to ferment out to get the alcohol content, so very important.

MN: We're talking some of the terms there such as the legs on the glass. That's one of the terms that I notice is in that wonderful glossary you've got within the wine guide, 'The McWilliams Guide To De-Mystifying Wine' and if you'd like a copy of that or you'd like to get that online then you can do so. We'll give you some details very, very shortly on that so that you'll be able to link through and get the details on that. In writing that guide I suspect you've written that for the reason that we were talking about. You've discovered that people don't know as much about wine as they did and they're a bit confused, and maybe people are backing off ordering a particular wine when they go to a restaurant

PR: I think it's a different approach Murray. I think what we're doing now is bringing more people in and we want to be more inclusive. It's very important as the younger generation and those people new to wine that start their wine drinking career that we give them as much information as possible, and we make them feel comfortable about the product. We don't want any mysterious approach to wine. We don't want to be elitist or difficult to understand, so the idea of this publication is to help people relax with wine and use it for exactly what it is. It's a wonderful beverage to enjoy

MN: Let's just talk about this wine, the taste of this one because we talked about all the others. This is much more up and at it. I can see why you left this one to the last. If you'd drunk this first you probably wouldn't have tasted any of the others. This is a wonderful, wonderful, heavy duty wine if you like. You'd of had this with a really good steak PR: That's right. It's perfect for a dinner party with some really beautiful meats and that style of food. It's really does do the job so roast beef or a good steak or

MN: Very soft, very mellow all the same. Good question that came in actually from Terry who wants to know, we were talking about wines that are particularly you know one year, two year old, and this wine here 2004, very young but tastes very mature. Are there vintages in Australian wines? Terry thank you for your question by the way, are there sort of wines and years to look out for?

PR: Every vintage is different. That's the great thing about Mother Nature, she will not have the same year, year after year and the wines reflect what happens in the vineyards. Actually I live in a vineyard and every morning I get up my day starts in the vineyards, so there's no season the same so the environment dictates the flavours and if you get more heat or less heat then those flavours change, so every vintage is different. We're lucky in Australia that we have a very stable environment generally so that there is an evenness in terms of the vintage. There's not much vintage variation but there is still variation. There are slight differences but not great.

MN: I guess your job as a chief wine maker, like any blender of wines is to make sure that the consistency is there and year after year people can buy that label and know exactly what they're going to taste.

PR: That's exactly what the product is about. It's giving people that confidence and I mean you can't have great variations in quality because then you lose the consumer very quickly. It's about confidence in the brand and we're very lucky again as I said that the consistency of our vineyards and the growing seasons are there to produce this style of wine.

MN: Alright, we've got time for just a couple more questions; one that's just come in from Jake. He's seen sparkling Shiraz wine on the shelves. Good question this actually, do you serve it warm? Do you serve it cold? It's a red wine but its sparkling

PR: Cold

MN: Cold every time. No hesitation there

PR: No, we tend to use sparkling Shiraz and sparkling Pinot Noir. It's a bit of an Australian style of wine. It's very popular in our country round Christmas time when it is so hot, so it's got to be served cold. I suggest in the UK again it's a great summer wine. Serve it chilled in the afternoon under a tree.

MN: Bar-b time

PR: Bar-b time exactly

MN: Yeah, yeah I know where you're going alright. Now Mr, I think its N. Smithers, thank you very much indeed for your question Mr or Ms Smithers. "I welcome your whole plain speaking approach to wine. So much of it is wrapped up in a strange language and snobbery, but how did it get like that in the first place?" How did we get to this stage of really massive snobbery over something which is a Mother Nature drink?

PR: It's a simple beverage really. You know as I said before wine is something, it's a natural fermentation, a natural product that's produced. I think because it's such a marvellous product people put a lot of effort into describing it. There are so many different vineyards in the world, there are so many different varieties that people do become enthusiastic in the world of wine and spend a lot of time trying to dissect it

MN: So it's just been a case really of all these wines that we've been talking about, there's been a language that's just been added, and added and added to, to the point where it starts getting crazy in the end doesn't it?

PR: It does yeah and as I said at the beginning, what we want to be is inclusive now as much as possible with particularly people who are new into wine or becoming now more wine interested, to try and give them the support and the knowledge so they can feel confident in the purchase

MN: Well if anybody does want that wine guide then they've just got to log on. We'll give you that address in just a second. We're just getting that up for you and the address is mcwilliams@consol.co.uk There we go, and just email the details and they'll send you back the guide there and then. One final question that did come in here and this came in from someone called Barmy Army, and Barmy Army wants to know, he said he enjoys having a glass of wine to commiserate when his national side have failed at some major sporting event and he just wondered if you felt the same about that. Do you have a glass of wine when you know Australia lose at something?

PR: I probably have a glass of wine when they win and also when they lose. I think reflecting back on the last couple of months it was just fantastic, and we enjoyed it just as much as you guys. I tell you we were still there with a couple of hours to go.

MN: Well I have to say that what we'll do is we'll burn that question and I'll send you The Ashes. How about that? That might be a nice way to do it.

PR: We'll see you in eighteen months

MN: Ok, well listen, it's been an absolute joy to taste four different wines, one after another and to be able to compare the difference. There is a major difference with all of these wines, but the important thing really is that it's not a complicated process knowing about the wines, drinking wines. People have got to be a bit more adventurous I guess, haven't they?

PR: Yeah and I think what you can do very much, is the wine industry is there to support you and we do a lot of tastings in stores, and if you see the opportunity, there are wines on tasting, take the opportunity to taste those wines and ask the questions of the staff. The staff are there to help, and to sell, and to promote the product, so it's our interest to help you and get the product moving. At the same time there's so many articles written about wine, a lot of information out there. In restaurants you have wine waiters there to help as well, so it's a team event and let's just hope that people will take the advantage of every option they get.

MN: Alright, well don't forget that email address once again mcwilliams@consul.co.uk Log on there and give them your email address, they'll send you the whole information and you can download it all straight on computer. There are even some hard copies available as well so we wish you well with de-mystifying your wine, enjoying some more wines like the J J McWilliams selection that we've got in front of us. Thank you once again Phillip for guiding us through so well, cheers

PR: Thank you Murray, a pleasure to be here

MN: And cheers to all of you and we'll catch you next time on web chats

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